[Meta] The Good, The Evil, and The AntiChrist: A Meta Grab Bag (04.01-centric)

[clex_monkie89]

Okay, so. This is some of the meta I (and others) came up with while watching the premiere. Have a little less than 3k of misc meta.

The Good, The Evil, and The AntiChrist: A Meta Grab Bag (04.01-centric)

- Sam wearing Dean's amulet. I have so much fucking love for this. First is the part where as far back as Skin we've known that this is basically Dean's most prized possession (his girl doesn't count as a possession because she's his girl). And then in A Very Supernatural Christmas we find out that Sammy gave it to him, that it came from Bobby and that is was meant for John way back. Not only does it likely have at least some kind of small power, but it's the very real symbol of just how much Sam loves Dean. Fuck matching rings in fic, fuck matching tattoos—in fic or canon—that amulet right there is all Dean needs to remember just how much he means to Sam.

And the fact that Sam kept it? Makes me so happy. Sam didn't toss it and couldn't make himself bury it with Dean, and that was clearly not because he thought Dean wasn't coming back or anything, but likely because he needed Dean close to him. And since Dean's leather doesn't fit and the car just doesn't feel right it'd have to be the amulet.

I mean. Sam kept that amulet. Not in his pocket, not in his bag, but around his neck. Under his shirt and close to his heart because that was one of his big brother's most meaningful things and it's nearly all he has left of him anymore.

- Sam's powers. Holy shit, dude. Okay, so are these powers from The Special Children or, like, newly inherited ones or something? Remember, Ava started out with visions and then managed to summon demons. Andy went from whammying people to forcing images in their brains, Voodoo Jake went from superstrength to snaking Andy's persuasion, Ansem going from speaking The Word (ala Jesse Custer) to apparently just being able to think things at people and make them do it. Hell, Sam even managed to move a dresser once, snaking a little bit of Max's power.

I think this is a mutation of his original power, somehow. Ava has similar visions, was arguably evil, and could summon demons to her without them killing her. Sam had the visions, is actively not evil, and can force demons out of their hosts. It's clearly still a fairly new power, though. Not because the waitress last night was dead afterward, because she could've been "dead" before they even met, but because the way Sam said, "Damn," after checking her pulse clearly states that Sam's done this before and lost the person being possessed then, too.

This seems to me that it means each kid didn't get one power and one power only, but that each of them developed one from their large pool. Basically, that they all have the ability to use the powers any one of them may have, but that, like with walking, speaking and so many other things, that it has to be learned over time.

I mean, really. Being able to exorcise a demon with your mind? How is that bad to anyone but demons? And the hosts that Sam hasn't quite got the hang of saving yet, of course.

- No demon would make a deal with Sam. The question is whether they wouldn't make the deal because they know the Winchesters and know that it would likely end in their death or whether they wouldn't make it because, say, Lilith wouldn't allow it. Maybe it just plain old was impossible. Maybe you can't trade a soul for one already damned, and I know that the CRD suggested a trade for John back in Crossroad Blues, but John's deal wasn't a contract, it was, "Fine, I'll stop fighting and go quietly, just fix my boy first and let me say goodbye to them."

Or, maybe, the couldn't because Dean was already tagged by the other guys? It's just a curious thought.

- I think I speak for a small portion of the fandom when I say that I am seriously hoping Kripke isn't going to try and pit Sam against Dean. I'm actually a little scared for it, because I love my show, but if Dean were to actually take up arms against Sam... That's when it would stop being my show. I mean, that's not Dean. Season two anyone?

Remember back in Hunted when we found out that John told Dean to save Sam or kill him? Remember all those fics about how Dean would kill himself right behind Sam if he ever managed it? Remember Croatoan when Dean locked himself in a room with what he thought was an infected Sam, content to die right there with his baby brother? Remember his fucking horror at Gordon when he said he killed his sister after she became a vampire? Remember the entirety of Born Under a Bad Sign? How about the AHBLs?

Dean Winchester not only would never kill Sam, but the entire reason he died and went to Hell in the first place was because he couldn't bear the thought of a world without Sam in it. If Kripke were to pit Dean against Sam as good versus evil, not only would he break characterization, but all of season two and the basis of season three would retroactively become completely and utterly worthless.

That one started out as to why I wouldn't like it, but ended up being why I don't think it'll happen.

Also, it seems to obvious that that's what's going to happen and Kripke likes to fake us out with anvils. Jo and all the anvils about her being John's daughter, then flipping that, all those hints that Sam might be half YED, then flipping that too. All that stuff about saving Dean and then sending him to Hell. It looks so obvious that Kripke's gonna pit Dean against Sam, so clearly that's not what's going to happen.

- I'm don't like the boys lying to each other so much now, either. I mean, last season they were telling each other things, closer than ever. And now they aren't. That makes me really sad. I guess I get why, though. Dean rightly knows that Sam would have a shitfit if he knew that Dean had planned on summoning what he thought was a mega-evil murdering demon. And Sam. Sam's afraid. Dean's not comfortable with Sam's "freaky powers," and never has been. Not to mention his accusation at Sam about possibly tapping into his inner evil to drag Dean out.

Sam's trying to learn his powers, trying to get them working how he wants so that he can do his job better, but Dean's got a knee-jerk fear of them because of where they come from and the way every other kid who had them has ended up. Andy was the only one who didn't go some level of batshit, and he ended up dead. It doesn't actually bode all that well for Sam, and Dean's overprotective at his weakest times.

And Ruby? Kind of self-explanatory.

But, still. I'm hoping this isn't going to be a trend, because I really, really liked Sam and Dean being honest with each other; in part because they're basically the only people in the world they can be honest with and in part because I like them when they're that close with each other.

- Bobby was drinking because Dean was dead and Sammy wasn't talking to him and those boys are as close to his sons as they can be without sharing blood or legal paperwork.

And, also, I love how Sam made two references to John&mdasha Vietnam vet who watched his wife burn to death in front of him and his littlest boy—possibly getting drunk growing up and half of fandom starts going on and on about what a drunk he is an how he's a horrible father and a bad person and molests his boys and kicks puppies, but Bobby's got enough empty bottles around that Dean comments on them and no one says a bad word.

This is not to say that I don't love Bobby, because I do, but I just find that double-standard interesting. If you subscribe to the thought that John was a bad father then wouldn't you have to realize that Bobby—who once pulled a shotgun on John—let these small little boys he knew stay with that bad father?

But I love Bobby, and I love that these two boys, who he has known since there were tiny and small and still had so much innocence in them (even Dean), break him so hard that he starts drinking. Sam and Dean are, no doubt, like children to him, and Dean died and then Sam vanished, changed his number, stopped calling, broke all contact. And that hurt him so bad—hurt this veteran hunter who has seen death all around him and had to kill his own wife and lost countless friends, resorted to drinking.

- Dean's raspy voice when he came back? That was fucking hot. And awesome, because that body hasn't made a noise in four months. The vocal cords are rusty. Strained and dry, unused and the fact that Dean's voice was scratchy, deeper, cracking like way back in season one when Jensen was still trying to find the right timbre.

- Dean's grave. And that sad, sad cross, just pieced together, rough and haphazard, like Sam just wanted to get it over with, just needed something there to warn other—because there is no way he would ever forget exactly where in that former forest Dean was.

And Sam not letting Bobby burn Dean, not being able to let him go even though that's what they did with John and that's how warriors Winchesters warriors Winchesters go. It breaks my fucking heart. I cracked and watched the first five minutes from the ComicCon panel back when it went up, and I'd been pouting and bitching for a while, wondering why the hell Sam had buried Dean and why Sam of all people wouldn't fucking burn Dean.

And it's just. It's so obvious, Bobby wanted to. Bobby wanted to salt and burn Dean, wanted to put him on the pyre, but Sam wouldn't have it. Would rather risk Dean's angry, vengeful, hate-filled spirit come back and have to deal with that than admit that Dean was gone and Sam wasn't going to get him back.

- "When I saw the clip of this earlier I was kinda hoping that it wasn't Dean coming back, that it was him stuck in limbo or his own Hell again or something."

I said that in the opening of my recap/play-by-play of Lazarus Rising, talking about those first few minutes from ComicCon.

I thought it was a really anticlimatic way to bring Dean back. I thought it was lame, and boring, and a cheap cop-out, and I was really, really, really hoping that it would turn out to be a Sisyfus kind of thing, Dean waking up to nothing an no one, trying desperately to find people, finally finding Sam and then waking up in his coffin all over again.

Keep in mind that this was back when I saw the clip and not the whole episode. I still kinda totally wish that that wasn't Dean coming back, but I must admit, it was cooler than I thought it would be.

- kroki_refur's recap mentioned this, "HI, DEAN! OMG, HIIII! Wow, you look like you’re having a couple of issues there. It’s OK, though, if Buffy can fight her way out of her own grave, I’m sure you can too! Especially since, apparently, Sam buried you in a pretty flimsy pine box and then has come back every now and then to aerate the soil and make sure it doesn’t get too compacted or whatever. Very thoughtful of him!"

And it occurred to me that that is something I can totally see.

Digging and redigging Dean's grave, cleaning out the bugs, all that horrifically sad and so mind-numbingly fucked up shit. He probably wouldn't actually do anything to the body,wouldn't be able to make himself touch it or even look at it too closely, but he'd salt along the casket, wet the dirt with holy water when he reshovels it (just in case, because there are things and people out there who don't like Winchesters, and lots of old things that say you can control people with their names, with parts of them like hair and nails and so on).

I bet he wanted to bury him shallower at first, but Bobby wouldn't let him because bears and wild dogs and other animals could come and get him because they smell fresh (rotting) meat.

- Sara poked me.

Quoted, with permission, from a locked post by unperfectwolf:
"So a lot of people seem to think Sam is a demon or evil and there will be a Dean-Sam show do of good vs evil but I don't think so.

Sam was so strategically not around when the angel spoke. I think that HE can hear the angel, and he is really good and the demons don't know, just thought since YED was on him he was evil or some such.

Also, Mary = angel maybe? we shall see."

Now, see, I really like this idea right here, and not just because we came up with it together.

The first part, with Sammy strategically not being there, was all Steve (unperfectwolf). And then I started keymashing and making noises about Mary and at that point the hive mind kicked in and it all kind of mushed together.

Ever since All Hell Breaks Loose we as a fandom have been wondering exactly how Mary knew YED, and since The Kids Are Alright we've been wondering about Mary in general. My person idea, and a few other people's idea too, I'm sure, was that Mary was a Special Child too, from her generation. I know others have thought maybe she made some kind of deal with YED or was a Malleus Maleficarum-style witch and so on. But what if that's not it at all?

I've seen a few fics here and there that toy with the idea of Mary having been an angel (Meanwhile, Back At The Ranch by trollprincess is the first one that comes to my mind) but not many people actually seem to be contemplating it as a serious option for Mary, which makes sense since we've never seen hide nor hair of one before (that we know of). But what if she is? What if that's how she knew YED, if that's why everyone she's ever even met is gone?

Think about that, then Sam would be half angel, with some demon blood and powers thrown in there. I think that would be enough to scar Lilith. Also, that would make Dean half angel too, which would also help explain why Aziraphale (yes, I know that's not his name but I've decided that's who he is so I'm going to keep calling him that) would have assumed/thought that Dean would be able to bear hearing his voice.

The question then would be what way Mary was an angel. Did she chose to be human, maybe see John and fall in love? Or was Mary's body a willing vessel for an angel? And if that's the case, for how long was she willing? Was it just the conception? Was it for the marriage? Longer? Was she already... inhabited when John met her?

- Re: Everyone and their cousin being mad at Dean for hitting slapping the demon!waitress.

That just annoys me. It encourages bad characterization. Like fic with Dean being trapped by she!demons and not hitting them because John told them never to hit a woman or some shit like that. Dean being all overly caring about random chicks (when he both cares too much and not at all about everyone already).

Sam and Dean having more, "WYMEN POWER, DEAN" "SKANKY SKANKS WITH EXTRA SKANK BITS," fights where Dean is horrible and disrespectful to women and treats them like crap and sex objects.

Now, I'm not saying that I love Dean hitting girls all the time. I'm just saying to take it up with the writer. Dean hitting a lot of female demons and hardly any male ones is because the writers (and network) really like eye candy and figure the boys who watch want something more hetero to look at in between plot. It's not because Dean hates women and just wants and excuse to hurt them. He stomps the shit out of the guys trying to kill him just as hard as he does the girls.

I don't actually have anything to say on the misogyny or lack thereof, because I'm smart enough to know when I don't know shit, I'm just saying that calling Dean mean or prejudiced for hitting a demon in a meatsuit with tits isn't right. Call it on the writers, dudes.

Also? Now I want a fic where the demons keep possessing women because they think they'll sneak by the boys easier or not be hit as fast or something.

---

PLEASE people, no spoilers for future episodes in the comments, don't make me start cutting bitches.

I apologize in advance, if you leave a comment on this and it takes me an inordinate amount of time to respond. Well. I'm nototrious for how bad I am at commenting, especially in meta posts.

Comments

[jeyhawk.livejournal.com]

A vague sort of backup for the claim that Sam can hear the angel (which did cross my mind when I watched it) but mostly for the fact that he is still good. The waitress demon says she could smell the soul on him a mile away. I think that comment was planted specifically so that we'd know that no matter what he's doing right now, he's still one of the good guys.

Some really good things to think about there, I like it when people get out the thinky thoughts. :0P

As for the last part, yes indeed. She was a demon, not a poor defenseless woman. Yes, she was scared, but still... demon. *sighs*

EDIT: Oh and I forgot... I don't think the boys will actually be pitted against each other, I rather think we will be led to believe that they might be pitted against each other. Like the whole Sam being possibly evil thing that was on the backburner for an entire season.

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

If (at least some) demons are humans who go to hell, maybe the same is true for angels?

And yeah, I'm calling the casual and lazy misogyny on the writers. They don't have to make every person injured on screen a woman, and they don't have to have every woman hurt, attacked and/or dead. It says nothing about Dean.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

I'm really excited about where this was going. I think a lot of your ideas are really interesting, and I can't wait to see how it really plays out.

Really, though, there are no words for how annoying I find the charge of misogyny in the case of Dean. As far as hitting women inhabited by demons... is that really misogyny? They're trying to kill him. When people are trying to kill you, you try to kill them right back, I thought that was kind of a hard-and-fast rule for survival. I for one would have no problem kicking the shit out of an infant if one was somehow making an effective effort to kill me. I give Dean a total pass on this one, and I'm kind of shocked to find that not everyone else does. (Also, they're DEMONS. Demons are not women. You can spare a moment to be sad that an innocent person got possessed and now has to be stopped by any means necessary, and the show has often done this (Meg?) But you can't let that keep you from stopping them. That's just a quick way to end up dead, and dead Winchesters mean no show for us).

[velithya]

psst: And Sam not letting Dean burn Bobby Bobby <--> Dean

Sometimes the misogony-criers really kind of annoy me! That people are actually calling Dean misogonist for hitting A DEMON shouldn't surprise me, but it seems to catch me every time. I mean, speaking personally maybe the second slap was a bit over the top, but Dean has just crawled out of hell and clawed his way out of his pine box, I'm gonna cut him some slack. Boy's messed up.

[littlewings04.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the hitting the demon part. I hate the misogyny debate (I just got into it on someone else's journal by accident for suggesting that the reason women are portrayed as psychic on the show has everything to do with Western occult tradition, and this chick came out of the woodwork to smack me down for being blind to the misogyny in the show, wtf?) and I think this is the basic element of it: Dean hates demons, regardless of the meatsuit they're wearing. We see women, he sees demons. And I often wonder if there is an effort by the writers, subconscious though it might be, to shock us with abuse against what we see as women in order to show how serious the boys are about what they do. It's engrained in us culturally that men hitting any female-bodied person is an automatic bad. The fact that the boys ignore that in the name of their work, that should telegraph something about their determination, another way they ignore basic cultural mandates in order to keep the dark at bay. Instead, it turns into "omg misogyny" and for the love of little apples, I'm so sick of it. When that panel comes up at WinCon, man, I'm hitting the bar for a beer.

[fromyourashes.livejournal.com]

?Remember back in Hunted when we found out that John told Dean to save Sam or kill him? Remember all those fics about how Dean would kill himself right behind Sam if he ever managed it? Remember Croatoan when Dean locked himself in a room with what he thought was an infected Sam, content to die right there with his baby brother? Remember his fucking horror at Gordon when he said he killed his sister after she became a vampire? Remember the entirety of Born Under a Bad Sign? How about the AHBLs?

Dean Winchester not only would never kill Sam, but the entire reason he died and went to Hell in the first place was because he couldn't bear the thought of a world without Sam in it. If Kripke were to pit Dean against Sam as good versus evil, not only would he break characterization, but all of season two and the basis of season three would retroactively become completely and utterly worthless.

THANK YOU.

Digging and redigging Dean's grave, cleaning out the bugs, all that horrifically sad and so mind-numbingly fucked up shit. He probably wouldn't actually do anything to the body,wouldn't be able to make himself touch it or even look at it too closely, but he'd salt along the casket, wet the dirt with holy water when he reshovels it (just in case, because there are things and people out there who don't like Winchesters, and lots of old things that say you can control people with their names, with parts of them like hair and nails and so on).


But also, screw you. My heart.

I'm not saying anything about the supposed misogyny (because fandom is STILL using that word improperly, for one thing, and for another, I have a life), other than to say what I've always said; If you're not enjoying your TV time, and it's upsetting you this much, you're doing it wrong. Go read a book. My TV time is escapism for me, plain and simple. I get enough of misogyny and sexism in the real world, and I value my limited free time far too much to get stressed out over a frigging television show.

Maybe I said more than I thought I would about that. *snorts*

Very thinky stuff here, darlin'. I don't know what I'll think of the show if they do end up pitting the boys against one another. I don't see it. I can see the show ending with the pair of them dying, fighting side by side, against evil. That's it. That's the show I watch.

As for Mary - I love that idea. Period.

[tabaqui]

Totally agree on the Sam vs Dean thing, for exactly the same reasons. Just - fucking now way. *SAM* possibly, maybe, might think he has to 'do something' to make Dean listen or make Dean stop stopping him or whatever, but it could never, ever come to them actively trying to hurt each other. Just...no.

And i kind of have to handwave Dean coming up out of the grave. A normal human, in a normal body, cannot do that period, end of sentence. Pretty much ever. So we'd either have to have Dean laid out American Indian style, or inside like - a warehouse or big walk-in freezer or something, or what we got. Limitations of the show/dramatic visuals/tone - sometimes, the pig has wings. :)

I don't like the double standard of Bobby/John, either. But then, i don't ever think John was that bad a dad, so....

I love the new Ruby - do *not* trust her. Not a bit. And no way is Sam having sex with that possessed girl's body. Just...no.

Misogyny = roll my eyes really, really, really, really hard. Stoppit, fandom, you make my head hurt.

In conclusion - Lazarus Rising *kicked ass* and i am in love all over again.
:)

Oh and! Mary=Angel....i dunno. It would make sense in the story, in some ways, but it's almost a little too far. Mother as angel figure is such a cliche, but...maybe. Have to think about that. Interesting idea.

[isoldam.livejournal.com]

I love your idea about the powers. The way that the 'special' kids developed their powers has always puzzled me. The idea that they are all tapping into the same pool of power, and each (at first) develop a different aspect of that power would explain a lot. I've always suspected that the origin of the kids powers was not demonic. I'll bet that the demon sought out kids that already had access to power and gave them demon blood so that he could control them later.

because the way Sam said, "Damn," after checking her pulse clearly states that Sam's done this before and lost the person being possessed then, too.

I don't think that this is logical. Sam's "damn" means only that he was disappointed that the host died. I don't see how you get that it he's done it before and the host died out of that. If anything, it indicates that he expected the host to survive.

Great meta!

[dawnfirenight.livejournal.com]

As far as the whole Dean vs. Sam thing goes...I definitely agree with you there. (Actually, I agree with pretty much everything you said, but this one strikes a chord.)

I wrote this in my journal yesterday, in fact - just going to c&p, because I'm lazy.

I've been worrying a little, ever since last night, that the show is going to go all-out war between Heaven and Hell with one Winchester leading each army, and while that would be epic it would also be slightly predictable. And you know what? That's not Dean's character at all, to lead an army of angels.

What is in Dean's character is for him to maybe go along with God's plan for awhile, but when he realises that Sam's becoming the Anti-Christ - which I think is going to happen eventually, that seems inevitable at this point - he's going to pretty much announce FUCK THIS, and he's going to ditch whatever plans God has and just save Sam. From the looks of Castiel, it seems like the angels really don't have that much regard for humanity - they're not about saving Sam from himself, they're about eradicating the threat he poses. And Dean's not going to stand for that.

"If it's the last thing I do, I'm gonna save you."

THAT is how this show needs to end. Not with Sam and Dean on opposing sides of a massive, divine, supernatural war, not with the world coming to an end - with Dean saying, "Screw destiny," and saving his brother when it seems like there's no hope for anyone, and then the two of them climbing into the Impala and driving off into the sunset while the last strains of "Carry On Wayward Son" play in the distance. That's what I want to see.

So yes. That.

Oh, and as for the misogyny...I make a point of avoiding those debates, because they make me both angry and frustrated. I don't know, I just don't see it - I mean, I'm a decently feminist sort, but I've never seen any sort of misogynistic slant to Dean's actions. You're right, when he beats on a woman it's always because there's a demon inside her. When he calls Ruby a skank, it's not the woman he's referring to, it's the demon. (I get the same whenever the subject of racism comes up.)

[threecatmama.livejournal.com]

Great ideas there...I've been thinking that Sam is not evil at all. He just was born gifted and the demons (specifically Azazel) were very interested in him b/c of the potential. I think he says damn b/c sometimes the host lives and other times no, but that happens with latin exorcisms too.

Personally, I think Mary was human, but had gifts just like Sam.

Can't wait to have my questions answered. That was the best season kick off ever!

[yourlibrarian]

This seems to me that it means each kid didn't get one power and one power only, but that each of them developed one from their large pool.

Yeah it seems to me anything less would have been useless. Presumably the demon control is the most important of the powers given Azazel's plans. And also that given the power came from him, controlling other demons would have been vital for him as well.

It had never occurred to me though that Sam's exorcisms might also be causing the host deaths. In the past most of the hosts were already dead by the time they were able to exorcise them so it wouldn't have been surprising that it keeps happening. (Storywise, it's also convenient for the writers if the boys and Bobby don't then have to deal with live victims).

The question is whether they wouldn't make the deal because they know the Winchesters and know that it would likely end in their death or whether they wouldn't make it because, say, Lilith wouldn't allow it.

Actually given the Winchesters' duplicitous nature I'd think any demon would be foolish to deal. John got out of hell, Sam spent a year trying to get Dean out and killed the Crossroads demon, and Dean double-crossed her in Crossroads Blues. I sure wouldn't make a deal with them, what would be in it for the demon?

but Bobby's got enough empty bottles around that Dean comments on them and no one says a bad word

That's an interesting point. Actually I never bought the idea that John could be an alcoholic, although that was the original idea in the Pilot. I don't see how he could be as effective at his job if he was that addicted, and given he was always afraid something might be after the boys, he wouldn't take himself out of commission so often as that.

But I love Bobby, and I love that these two boys, who he has known since there were tiny and small and still had so much innocence in them (even Dean), break him so hard that he starts drinking.

Well actually the corollary to that is that we don't know that Bobby isn't an alcoholic. We see very little of him in the series, know virtually nothing of his backstory except that he had to kill his own wife (which is still, given Dream, his worst nightmare), and although he hunts he is more often a researcher. Certainly that line was supposed to make us draw just the conclusions you mention, but for all we know Bobby usually drinks a lot and all the bottles lying around meant he hadn't been cleaning and taking out the trash ;>

He probably wouldn't actually do anything to the body

Actually I would think this might well be one of the reasons he might have dug up the body again (though the amount of grass on it would seem to indicate it wasn't that recent. Given Sam was trying "everything" he might well have tried one or two rituals with the body itself in hopes of bringing Dean back. That would certainly explain the relative ease of escape and the state of the box. But the idea that he was periodically protecting the body too is a good one -- absolutely he'd want to keep it safe.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sapphiredreams/]

Wow, I never thought about Mary being an Angel. I just never thought Supernatural would go the route of angels - wrong. This gives me lots of food for thought.