clex_monkie89: Close-cropped picture of Sam and Dean Winchester sitting far closer than normal people. (SPN - Meta - Sam Wrote)
clex_monkie89 ([personal profile] clex_monkie89) wrote2007-02-05 03:21 pm
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[Insert Catchy Title Here]: A Houses of the Holy meta.

PT's meta on this. I point this out because it is much better than anything I could ever write and says a bunch of stuff I attempt to say here.

Sam and Dean and faith (Possibly religion maybe) This is a meta that started out about Sam. Then Dean stood up and said, "Dude, what about me? People wanna hear about me way more than Sammy the amazing emo!kid over there," and I had to listen.

Spoilers for Supernatural. Assumes all episodes up to Houses of the Holy are up for grabs under here.



What we learned.

Okay. So in this episode we learned that Sam prays every day, that he has for a long time and that Dean didn't know this.

We also learned that Dean considers himself an Atheist at the beginning of the ep. We learned that Mary was the religious one in the family and the last thing she ever said to Dean, the last thing she said to him every night, was "Angels are watching over us." He believes "there's no higher power, there's no God. There's just chaos and violence and random unpredictable evil that comes out of nowhere and rips you to shreds."

Atheism, non-religions and God.

Here's the thing that gets me. Dean? Is an angry little boy. He's very pissed at something out there. I think he likes to consider himself an Atheist but I don't think he really is. The problem is that there isn't a term for someone who believes in some form of higher power but doesn't like them. Satanic is the closest thing I can think of but it's really not the same thing at all, not even close. My brother actually started a cult specifically based on this but it's nowhere near legal and a completely different story.

The way the Dean sounds throughout pretty much this entire episode suggests that it's not that Dean doesn't believe there's anything out there but rather that whatever's out there is an asshole. There was a scene in this week's House (0312 - One Day, One Room) where House argued with a lady about religion and said something along the lines of "Either God doesn't exist or he hates you." Which is a perfect bit of Dean right there. He tells himself he doesn't believe because it's either believe in nothing or believe God exists and he just doesn't give a fuck about him or his family.

Dean has not had much good in his life, his mother died when he was a kid, he's seen all forms of evil over and over again, demons and monsters and people acting out the evil inside of them. He has not seen angels or anything of pure good the way they so often see things or pure evil.

Dean wants to believe. He really does, but if he believes, then that means (in his mind at least) that God lets bad things happen to good people. And Dean's not the kind of guy who can handle that. Dean believes that bad things happen to good people because they just do. Because if there was a God that let bad things happen then he must not really be all that "good."

Fate.

Sam believes his fate, his destiny, is already laid out before him. I think he's grasping at his own straws but deep down inside he thinks there's nothing he can do and hat he's going to go evil.

Dean believes that you make your own fate. Destiny is a load of shit and you are what you want to be. He's not afraid that Sam's gonna go evil because it's "fated;" he's afraid that Sam's gonna go evil because Sam's just gonna give up trying to be good one day.

Why fight?

Sam fights evil because he thinks it will boost his karma points and help him "fight his destiny." Sam wants to go to Heaven (Or wherever he believes) when he dies and he thinks that saving people will get him good marks. The more people he saves the more of a chance he has at not turning evil. He wants redemption, though he's done nothing to need it.

Dean fights evil because it saves people. Because every body they salt and burn is another dozen people that spirit wont kill. Because every demon they exorcise is another family that stays alive. He doesn't seem to have an opinion one way or another as to what will happen to him when he dies.

Sam fights evil for his Eternal Soul, Dean fights evil for other people's lives.

What about afterlife?

Dean's a pretty open guy as far as we've seen. He trusts his gut and isn't easily fooled. He's stated several times that he believes what he can touch and see. Now the average person who says that has the opinion that when people die that's it. Dean knows that's not it, he knows there's something more because he deals with things that have died and are still around on a daily basis. This makes Dean's faith and beliefs a little more hard to pin down. In 0201 - In My Time Of Dying there is an exchange between Dean and the reaper. The reaper is trying to convince Dean to give in to death and move along and the following conversation takes place:

Tessa!Reaper: It's time to put the pain behind you.
Spirit!Dean: And go where?
Tessa!Reaper: Sorry. I can't give away the big punchline. Moment of truth. No changing your mind later. So what's it going to be?

[Source]

This, to me at least, makes it clear that Dean has no clue what happens next. Whether he goes to Heaven, Hell, The Elysian Fields, Hades, Purgatory, gets reincarnated, or what. We know that he's pretty well-read on religion (He knew what Nazareth was back in 0104 - Phantom Traveler and he made a joke about 72 virgins in 0201 - I My Time Of Dying) so he probably knows that there are a lot of options and a lot of things that could happen to him at this point. Given, his father was still alive then and had not given his life for his son or made any kind of deal with any demon at this point, so his views may have changed a bit since then but I don't really see Dean discounting a possibility just because he's pissed off.

From all the things we know about Sam in canon it's easy to gather why he might be a praying man. It isn't unreasonable to think that he might have even started before he left for Stanford. I personally can very easily see a young Sammy praying alone in a motel room that his brother and father will come home alive.

Faith.

The entire episode Sam is desperately looking for a sign, he needs it to be an angel sending these people out on a mission. He needs reassurance that he's right and there's more than just evil out there. He needs to know redemption is possible for him, that The Demon isn't the only one out there with a plan for him.

Dean spends the entire episode desperately trying to prove that he's the one who is right; that there is no angel giving missions and no God passing down orders.

Sam asks for a sign and expects it to come in the form of an angel sending people out on missions of Holy Murder.

Sam's sign comes in the form of Dean questioning his beliefs (Or lack thereof).

Dean witnesses the would-be date rapist evade death-by-Sam only to die in a freak Final Destination car accident with a pipe through his chest. This makes him question his thoughts, makes him think that maybe there is something out there with a plan, something besides The Demon. I point this out because Almost!Date Raper's death didn't have to be taken as a sign God wanted him dead. It could have very easily been taken as a sign that when you're time is up it's up. One way or another. Nothing you guys can say will convince me Dean doesn't know what Final Destination is. I think that fact that Dean saw that and is now having thoughts about seeing "God's Will" rather than believe that Death just wanted him dead proves that Dean wants to believe.

I had a whole paragraph right here over Sam killing an innocent because an angel told him to but snipped it because apparently some people think that Sam really wasn't going to kill him.

Religion.

What do you think I am, stupid? Yeah, cause I'm gonna try and talk about something I know nothing about.


To meta:

Sam and Dean and faith (Possibly religion maybe)
DNA and Fingerprints (Re: Shifters)
Sam and Dean's "Big Plan" not to be caught
Sam and Dean and their lack of stealthy-smoothness (I actually kinda like that they didn't use gloves; it's consistent for them. And now it's like "What's the point?")
FBI versus local police
Winchesters from the outsider's perspective

[identity profile] tuesdaysgone.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 12:24 am (UTC)(link)
I had a friend call Dean a maltheist, which I didn't completely understand, so I went HERE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism, and got a little bit more of a picture of what she was trying to say, although I think perhaps I'm not completely understanding. Despite knowing several self-professed atheists, I'm never 100% sure what all these definitions mean.

Sam's faith and crisis of are pretty easy to understand, really...I went to read [livejournal.com profile] poisontaster's entry which you linked and was in complete agreement with her POV on it (and impressed by her eloquence, which I was distinctly lacking on the subject). I really am struggling with Dean's crisis of..what? non-faith? and understanding what is going on with him. I'd love to hand him the Book of Job, though it's one of the hardest-to-understand books of the Bible. And the most basic building block is a core belief in the benevolence of God. Which he never developed, or which was stunted in him by Mary's death, and the manner of it, and his subsequent understanding of it.

I'm finding it really interesting to read everyone's meta, actually, because normally religious beliefs are one of those topics everyone just avoids, and for this episode it's actually necessary to bring them up. And we all have such a different take on the topic because of our backgrounds. (how geeky am I? Geez.)
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[identity profile] fiddleyoumust.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 02:59 am (UTC)(link)
I don't know if there's actually a definition for what I think Dean is... but I'm going to try to explain.

Dean's one of those characters who sees evil everyday and he lives in it, down deep where it touches his life and he can't really escape it. I think at the end of the day, he just sees more evil, the next evil thing he has to go find and hunt and kill.

So when he thinks about God, he thinks... Where is he? Where was he? Why didn't he stop so and so from suffering? Why didn't he save my mother, my father? Why is he putting Sam through all this bullshit? If he's real, why does he let bad things happen to the people I love.

And that fascinates me on SO many levels because when Dean leaves someone he's just saved all they can think is... There's God. God was looking out for me. God sent me help. God saved me.

I think I told [livejournal.com profile] clex_monkie89 this in chat today, but Dean is being the change in the world he'd most like to see and he doesn't even realize it. He's good. Sam's good. And more than that, they're both doing something about it. They're going out and fighting and changing the world for the better.

[livejournal.com profile] poisontaster said it best about there being voices in the leaves. There's god in everything. There's god in Dean Winchester and he just doesn't know himself well enough to see it. He doesn't realize he's been the answer to a prayer before. He's been the two boats and the helicopter. That's just amazing to me. Beautiful. I wish he could see it.

[identity profile] tuesdaysgone.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
It's interesting how this show puts in these little hints and tugs about Dean, how he wanted to be a fireman when he was little, how all he ever thinks about is saving people...I've always thought that people like firemen, police officers, soldiers are one of the truest images of God in the world - they love their brothers and sisters enough to literally lay their own lives down to save them. It's really a Christ-like depiction - the Suffering Servant. And that's Dean's prime instinct. And he can't see that it's a God instinct. You're right - it's beautiful to see. But it's painful too, because he gets no comfort out of it. He thinks he's been forsaken.

(It's amazing that this little TV show can simultaneously gross me out with hands down garbage disposals and such, and also make me see religious allegory, isn't it....)
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[identity profile] fiddleyoumust.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
This show is amazing. It does make you think and question all kinds of things and then at the same time it's just silly and scary and fun.

I've had so many really good conversations around this show. The definition of evil, right and wrong, man's law vs. God's law, etc, etc.

I really like your comment about it being christ like and how Dean's always been that type of person. Yes. He's selfless and I think that's partly because he doesn't really have any self worth. He doesn't put a high enough price on how good he is. It's sad, but he's so tragically flawed and lovely at the same time and that always makes for a really good character.

[identity profile] tuesdaysgone.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 04:47 am (UTC)(link)
I'm just waiting, and hoping, for the moment when someone, or something, makes Dean realize his own importance. What's he going to do when he finally realizes? He won't understand. It's what makes me wonder about the Henrikson character, who seems determined to point out the absolute utter worst Dean's ever done. Or supposedly done. I feel like this is a season of extremes. What's going to balance Henrikson?

(That layer of utter goodness with a complete lack of self-awareness is in the character, but it's buried pretty deep under all the other stuff, and I'm just always so impressed by how Jensen just emotes it so completely with, like, an expression and a tone of voice.)
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[identity profile] fiddleyoumust.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 01:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm just always so impressed by how Jensen just emotes it so completely with, like, an expression and a tone of voice.

I can say with certainty, that if Jensen wasn't playing Dean, or if Jared weren't playing Sam (thus creating an entirely different chemistry) this show would not be what it has become.

Those two take two interesting characters on a somewhat entertaining show and make it must see TV every single week. They're both so lovely.
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[identity profile] black-samvara.livejournal.com 2007-02-06 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
The problem is that there isn't a term for someone who believes in some form of higher power but doesn't like them.

My workplace now has the giggles and wants to suggest anger management.

[identity profile] veradeath.livejournal.com 2007-02-07 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I meta'd an hour ago about a related topic, that being Sam's choices in the future.

My points were basically, a) that he still has free will, or b) that free will is no longer on the table; c) that saving people to prevent him turning evil is a moot point b/c of a and b, and d) that thrying to stack the deck as he's doing is never a good thing.

This is very interesting and I agree with the points that you raised.